Fahrenheit 451 Discussion Topic #1 – 3/5-3/9
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Fahrenheit is a relatively short novel. Could anything have been gained by including more scenes from the time before or after the events of this story? If so, what could have been added and for what purpose? If not, explain why not.
I don’t think Ray Bradbury should have added anything to the book. This is because he wants us to think which is what some people should. Also, if this book received so much popularity, money, and became a top-seller, there probably isn’t much wrong with it.
I also have an idea in my mind, that it could use a little bit more background information. But only on certain topics. Otherwise if you put any more info. on some things you could over embelish them in all the thoughts and ideas you are trying to previal across to the reader.
Thank you Ken, I think you helped to emphasize the true point of what everyone was trying to say. Trying to do things on your own is never going to get you anywhere. You need support, love, and guidence from the start to the finish. Everyone has one main goal in life, to put others before themselves. Or at least that’s what I believe. Yet; it’s obvious that providing for others before you allow youself to benefit, doesn’t happen anymore. In fact today it is the total opposite. Wake up people, look around, there are other humans on this planet besides you! One story I saw on the news not too long ago, was about how a man had killed someone and blamed in on his friend. (Who by the way was completely innocent). Turns out his friend had spent countless years in jail before the authorities re-opened the case. The real culprit is finally in jail, but nothing can make up for the years his friend will never get back. This just goes to show how senseless and slef-centered people are nowadays. What kind of person would blame their friend for a crime they didn’t commit? It justs makes me so upset to know I will be growing up in this kind of environment, and my kids will most likely have it worse. I know I’m not the perfect role model citizen, everyone has their moments. However I try and will continue to try and prove my point that America needs to change. One person can make a difference, and step by step I’m trying to meet that goal. Thank you again Mr. M. for letting me realize this world is in our hands next.
If you and I and everyone else dwells on the idea that it will not change, then it will not change. But we don’t have to do that, do we? We can raise ourselves and those around us, and those around us can raise those around them, and so on and so on. We have to stay hopeful for the future while creating the future we want in our present. We have to do it now. We have to present ourselves notin a way that makes us seem better than others, but in a way that is attractive to others. By being open-minded, willing to give our abilities to thers, share our love for humanity, welcome dynamic differences among people, cultures, literature, and so on, by being and fostering all this (which is pretty easy if you think about it) the world can actually change. In a big way, it is about our perspective. Postive vibes rub off on others, just as negative ones do. I implore you to introduce yourselves to people you don’t know, people you wouldn’t normally talk to – in order to spread the idea that the world is a wondorous beautiful place to experience each other. We are so varied and complex that we owe it to each other to share our knowledg and thirst for life with each other. Be present in each moment. Thanks Jenna.
Wow, Ken’s comment really hits the heart and makes you think about how much you need other people. It’s not that you can’t survive without them but it is sad to be on your own and lonely.
It is our nature to think selfishly and feel that the only thing that matters is how we feel, and we don’t really think about the other person and what you could do to help their day.
I wasn’t there when Mr. Moshe said all those things, but from what Ken explained you really get how our teachers see us as the next big leaders in the nation, and if we grow up selfish we’ll lead the nation into the same world as Farenheit 451, so thanks for sharing that.
You see, Danielle, it is just the idea that I actually can not survive without other people that makes life so interesting. No matter how I look at it, twist the facts to fit the way I’d like to understand them, the reality is that I never do anything alone. I never have. I never will. Everything I do has involved in some way another, presently involes others, and will always from this time on touch someone else in some way. Nothing I do is independant of anything. We are all connected – always have been and always will be. When that connection is cut off, I will no longer matter. I love being connected to others – It makes life unpredictable and gives me a reason to remain God-centered. When it’s all me – at any moment – I am the God center. That is a dangerous perception for any human to have.
After today in class, I don’t know if I will ever think the same way ever again. After seeing Mr. Moshe get emotional over whats happening to OUR lives and not his, it was an incredible and selfless moment that is true and dear from his heart. We go around everyday carrying out the functions of “life” worrying about the smallest things such as what we are going to wear today, or if the cute girl/guy in class will notice me or not. Mr. Moshe showed true COMPASSION, something that our society lacks today. He cared about what is happening to our world and what it is becoming. I can’t express how deeply moved I am from that. What happened to loving your neighbor and supporting those around you? We, as human beings, think in such a way that makes us the star and the center of attention all the time. I am the exact same way. It is in our nature to think this way. Ever consider thinking about what goes on in other peoples’ minds? Ever consider that 7 billion people have the same natural instinct of life that thinks that the world revolves around them? Today I saw real compassion and care for the well being of others. I know Mr. Moshe has two daughters and I’m more than positive that he doesn’t want them to grow up into a world where no one cares to help one another and actually condones isolation. Imagine you are on an island with no one else there. Would you survive? Some might say yes. Ok think about this, would you be happy? Maybe a small margin of you may say yes again, but where is the biggest factor in sustaining life coming into play? Where is love? Where is passion? Where is art, technology, sports, history, education, anything in the world that matters? They come from other people whether you like it or not. Teachers come into mind when I think about education, but some people who learn on their own use the internet or a textbook. Guess what? Someone else made that textbook, or made that post on the internet. Just stop for a minute and think what the world would be like if you didn’t have other people surrounding you, and Mr. Moshe, I respect, applaud, and thank you for your emotional response to our world as we know it.
I think that ray bradburry could have possibly added just a little more history like a prologue at the beginning of the story to tell us what the world has become. I also think that he could have made the book a lot long (I’ve already finished it). I wont give away any details but this a very exciting book and i think he could have made it longer. Maybe adding something like a five years later section at the end of the book. He also could have added more details and events into the plot line. He could have easily kept people reading because it is a very exciting book once you begin to understand what is happening. I hope every one else reading this enjoys this book as much as i did once they come to understand it and finish it. A lot of you are always talking about wanting clarisse to stay in the book longer and that is actually a good thing because you are grieving for her and feeling the loss of a friend like montag did.
ray bradbury is spelled this way – Ray Bradbury. I can’t thank you enough for trying to foster an interest in this level of literature. I jst want yo to work on your issue with capitalization. Thanks for everything, and I look forward to moderating online discussions surrounding Brave New World.
Thank you Mr. Mosh’e for reading these responses in class today. After seeing you get emotional, I realized that I needed to remind myself on the value of education. Students who are careless of work now, are only going to get worse as time goes on. The saddest part of it is, is that we can only suggest to them to work hard and learn. We can’t force anyone to learn, it’s a willingness that has to come from the student. We say what we know, and we learn from what we hear. I wish everyone could be inspired to try hard in school and ultimately succeed in the end. Our society is lazy, everyone thinks that if they wait long enough, success will find it’s way to them. No one takes action in advance anymore, they just hope for the best. The real student whose earned everything given to them is inspiration to me myself. I want to be that someone in the future. I want everyone to be like that person. That way we could show our generation, and generations to come that action is the best key to unlock the door of success. You have to find that key, it won’t just show up at your doorstep one day. There are no shortcuts, no loopholes, just big earnings for hard workers. That’s probably why Bradbury didn’t give us background information, despite us wanting it. He wanted us to figure it out and find it out ourselves. Not have it handed to us, but actually research, discuss, and understand like real students.
I think that they should add more important and historical parts because it could be more interesting like today if Beatty talked more about history and it’s important parts in the US life it would change the view of things and of the government. And if people knew more about the real history they would be against the government.
Fahrenheit 451 is already a fairly complex book, and if one added more, wouldn’t it just get more confusing? For those who truly understand all of whats going on, with the symbolism, allusions, and other literary devices, then it could be possible that there is more to put in there. The question is… WHAT? Bradbury has already given us a very thick and rich plot, what could there possibly be that could have any relevant significance to the plot. I suggest that Bradbury attempt to characterize his characters more and elaborate on the dull machines that they truly are. Take some time out to describe Clarisse more, or Beatty. This doesn’t have to be a blatent and direct comment about the character, they could be characterized by dialogue or actions. I just would like to go more in depth with who the characters really are, and not just give a generalization about the division of people in town. There are the “obsolete” or creative thinkers that are inspired by books and strive to keep them, and there are the mindless, ignorant robots of society that won’t accept the idea of creativity or thought. Bradbury has done a good job, but I think a more elaborate characterization could be put into play.
Yes, characterization. I think this is the key. Let me turn this one over a bit. I know, as a great majority will confirm, that characterization is what happens to be most lacking in much of today’s young adult fiction. And what about the readers? I’ll get to that. Plot, plot, plot. Romance, love interests, friends, foes – we get a lot of this surface stuff these days, but real depth of character is missing today, isn’t it? Ask yourself this question: Are we supposed to dig in deep to fully understand secondary characters? nswer: We are not. They are supposed to be flat, static, secondary in order to serve the development and progress of conflict within the round, dynamic, main character. Clarisse? no. Beatty? a litle more than Clarisse maybe, but still static. . . Who is our real focus? Guy Montag (the “guy” of the book). Remember, from a literary standpoint, anything outside the main character is really only a setting detail, only there to shed light on the main character. All is setting detail. Everything is there – characters, setting, time, props, etc. – to give us what we need to come to understand the main charcter, and now get this, to see the conflict/struggles progress hopefyully to a meaningful resolution. Clarisee was only there to help develop the conflict within Montag. We know what we need to know to drive the conflict and allow us to see deep inside the main character.
And the reader? Today’s average reader is not interested in reading (I could stop here), processing, synthesizing, comprehending, and discussing what things mean in a story. What attention are most people giving their own lives? How can we expect them to devote time to literature, to art, to understanding the world? themselves? I’ll tell you how. WE readers have to care for the developement of our abilities in the hearts and minds of those who defy and outright deny the same abilities in themselves. With all our own hearts. With everything we have. We have to believe in them because they don’t believe in themselves. It is our responsibility. Acept it.
Back to Fahrenheit . . . What we have here is a real character-driven story. Something today’s relatively disinterested readers usually get frustratred with. It’s all about plot to today’s young raeders. “What happens next?” This desire to know what’s next is just what we’vebeen battling through our Warm ups. People don’t want to live NOW. They want what’s next . . . now. I say to them, “Be here. Now. Read this. Now.” Not to be mean, but to ask them to be present int hemoment. “Enjoy the read. Be in the story.” I request. This is a sign in readers of what is going on in society. Forget about people, and so forget about characters. “Give us a constantly moving plot,” they say. Please, please, for Bradbury’s sake, focus on Guy Montag, and the plot will move without you even noticing. Take the time to process what he is thinking, feeling, saying, doing. Feel what he feels. He didn’t get to know Clarisse as well as HE would have liked. What makes you think the author owes you anything? FEEL as Montag felt. You are supposed to feel a loss. She is dead, and she should have lived. She was the sunshine of the spirit of life that is lacking in the world of the book. Montag saw that, felt its promise, and then . . . it was shut out. FEEL the LOSS. Grieve for Clarisse. She is dead. You don’t get to know her JUST as Montag doesn’t. You want more, you crave more, and you are denied it for her death, for Montag’s suffering, for the fact that Bradbury is trying to tell us, “Read more books. Be Clarisse in your daily life. Taste the raindrops. Rub the dandelions.” You don’t need more detail. You want it. You need to feel the loss as Guy is feeling it. Get the realization as Guy is getting it. As a shock!
In short(ish) I think, Ken, that we are dealing with the element in American society that asks for EVERYTHING to be GIVEN to them – that most people don’t want to work for something. Appreciating art can be easy if you let the art fill you. The only way it can truly fill you is if you know what it is that is filling you. Not sure if I’m making sense here. And to be frank,I may be rambling at this point.
Hey you guys, you have to work to understand the world. Comprehension will never be given to you. YOU have to get it. Get it! Get it?
I agree with the people who stated the problem about having a hard time understanding the book because of the way the author writes it. the author most of the time during the book uses to much complex words or literary devices that it is so hard for readers to get an idea of whats happening. some times we can understand whats going on but i think that people would most likely enjoy the book if the author made it more clear to us about what he was talking about.
You should all be tired oftelling teachers that you don’t know what literary devices are, or that they get in the way of you understanding whatyou’re reading. Here is a link to a GLossary of Literary Devices – http://www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/general/glossary.htm. Also, check out the links available on my website that can help you to help yourself to learn about the things you need to know concerning literature (and other life related topics) . . . . http://moshej.edublogs.org/student-resources/test-prep-terms-with-practice-links/ .
Test Prep Tools
Standardized Test Camp
Math Preparation Resources
Reading Preparation Resources
Standardized Test Prep Terms
Test-taking Strategies
I’m glad most people are saying the same things, this means thats it’s not just me who would have liked a little more extra information. When a variety of students with highly different intellectual and opinionated minds agree on one specific topic, it’s pretty clear what Bradbury should have done. Yes, no one really understands what this book is saying, but maybe if you focused more on it and had the words soaked in a little bit you would. When people say you learn when you are doing something you love, they are 100% true. Just try to have a positive attitude towards things and the outcome on the end will be great.
I also agree with the people above that history of previous censorship in the book would’ve helped. You don’t just go straight to completely burning books, there are steps before that. This would’ve given us a deeper understanding to the book than just knowing that books are being burned.
Honestly I wouldn’t have added anything. So far I think the book is at its full potential.
In all honestly, I barely understand this book. Maybe because I don’t try to put my heart in it 100% and actually try to understand it! But I do think that is needed some more background information , just so that things could be more clearer, but then again, the author wants you to actually think about what he’s trying to say and he wants you to really think about it. And he uses all these literal terms like foreshadowing and symbolism are two the author really uses!
And also, burning books? Oh my. How would it really be to live in a world where books didn’t exist?
I agree with Dessie. There should be times that lead up to the burning of books and why they burned them. He shouldn’t have killed Clarrise so quick like Jenna said. She was an impprtant character in the book. She was the one who made Montag look at his life differntly.
Guys & Gals –
Please proof your comments before you submit them. I am having to edit your work a lot. Check your comments for spaces between words, capitals, punctuation. I will not continue to edit your writing. I don’t get paid for that. That aside, I am LOVING your comments. Your ideas have been amazing. You are excellent individuals and I honor your honesty.
I would have included some background information about the time before. Maybe something like…
“A time before our time, we had things. We had schooling with books, we had character in this world. We didn’t kill eachother, we all got along, we had discussions on literacey. When our world decided to burn books people learned distruction, people learned discrimination. This was a time before our time that shouldnt have occured in time. We are now the people who do the wrong, but we love feeling the power behind the match that started the fire that burned not only knowledge but heart, and society. We burn people who are trying to tell us that what we are doing is wrong, and we know it is wrong, but what is wrong is right on the other side of life. We are now learning the life or death situation, when we should be learning about the future of books, and how we can do a whole lot better with books. A time before our time we had things like wonders, and curiosity that came from our imaginations. We expanded our imaginations by reading things about people and visualizing what those people looked like, and what they were going through, how they felt, what things tasted like. We knew luster, we knew texture of all things around the world just by reading. We had people who got together and tried to write things. We had people who got together to try to difuse other authors meanings of things. People tried to understand these ways of literature that we are burning today. Have you ever wondered things? Have you ever experienced, but not experienced? Have you ever Imagined but never done?” Beaty says to Montag.
I really enjoyed reading your version of Bradbury’s backstory. Great look into your head. Thanks Natalie. Keep it up. This is the BLUE of rainbow writing. This is real writing!!! When you see Mrs. Jackson, thank her!!
I agree with the comments above. If the author included some examples of censorship that went on in the past, then it’ll be helpful to the readers. It’ll give us a clue on how the past was before reading was allowed and book burning was allowed. It’s very interesting how we don’t burn books today. If we did keep on burning books, so much history would’ve been lost. Literature can be seen and perceived in different ways. If a reader during Montag’s time period read about history, which some did, they would’ve kept it a secret. So many people don’t know how important books are. They symbolize freedom and the past. They help everyone. For example, science books are written and published for people to learn about science. Books aren’t written just to inform, but to entertain, persuade, and explain.
I agree with most of the people here. I think that the author should’ve added some information about how the world changed, and why. I think if the author added how the main character grew up it would be interesting as well.
From what we’ve read in class so far, I think Ray Bradbury has done great with the story line. What I think he should have added as well would be how censorship came to be. Also I agree with Jenna, Clarisse should have been included a little longer. The relationship with her and Montag was strong as well as tense. Maybe it would have been better if Mildred actually came in contact with Clarisse. That would have given the story a more balanced conflict then, poof, Clarisse is dead. Lastly, I would have wanted to expience how Montag would feel about Clarisse if she didn’t die and how it would frame the rest of the story.
Strong, well thought out comment.
I think there should have been more background information on Montag and Mildred, it’s confusing how they don’t even remember how they met or why they are together. Also he should add more scenes of Clarisse she was way more interesting than anyone else in the novel
I think that before they introduced any character they should have a part that goes through the years that the world was the regular world to change to the world that Bradbury has in Fahrenheit 451 to explain how it went from point A which is a normal world to point B which is the land that is described in Fahrenheit 451. I think he should include the life story of Montag as he goes from being a child to a teenager to being a fireman in the world they live in.
I agree with the comments above; maybe if we got some background knowledge about the world Montag lived in before/ during cenorship starting to form, we would better understand how it is as of now. The main events are always interesting, but sometimes you need an appetizer before the main course. To set up what’s happening and warm up your thinking proccess, thus creating a better idea of what is happening.
OK, so who of you all will make up the team of creative writers to write the prologue?
I would’ve said earlier adding background information about the censoring and how it came to be. But Captain Beatty’s speech cleared that up.
I think that Ray Bradbury could have added some history BEFORE the time period in the book. It would have made more emphasis on how much the world had changed. Like he could have added when the firemen started coming in and burning all the books. Maybe it could be in the point of view of a character that Montag meets in the future. In my opinion, however, I think that Ray Bradbury should not have used that much imagry. To have some imagry is good, just enough so that your imagination can picture the rest. But in this book, when it talks about something, I automatically thinks that its a symbol of some sort. For instance, the Mechanical Hound. I thought it was an incinerater or something when really it was an actual Mechanical Hound! That may just be me…I dont know.
I think the relationship between Montag and Clarisse ended too quickly. I believe that Ray Bradbury should have kept Clarisse alive for just a little bit longer before he suddenly killed her off. Clarisse in my opinion was an interesting and important character. It would have been nice for the readers to hear more of her philosophies about life before she left. Plus she was the one who opened Montag’s eyes to discover the real world around him. The readers of Fahrenheit 451 would have been more intrigued by the words of Clarisse and would have understood the book a little better, and what it’s supposedly about if she had died a little later in the novel.
I think they could have added times before when they did get to create and view/listen to art, such a music, art, books. Or when they got to read, spell, learn and things like that so then they could view the life of what used to be and then the time of censorship.
As far as strong story telling goes, it would be cool if we got what you are talking about along witht he transformation to the new way. All the rebellion that would have gone on. The protests. All that stuff is great to imagine.
I think that if this novel would have included some events time before this story would be very interesting, because we could learn more new times about that time period and I think that it would be a good idea to put some background information about this time so we can learn more.
What would you have added before the way the story started?
I think that there could have been more things that could have been added into the story to make it better and these things could have explained what they were talking about better. I know how most of the time authors wont come out directly and say what they are meaning but Bradbury could have at least given us a little more clues or details in what he was meaning to say. Most of the time i can comprehend what he is meaning but others i can’t. Because i wont understand what that character or what the text is symbolizing.
Terrific stuff, Riley. Let’s get this conversation going. Let’s see who else wants to get in on this.
Ok. So, what would you have added? Where? Why? How much should the reader be given? What about thhe imagintiton? What about your imagination? Asking for more from the writer may lead to a watered down unimaginitive experience for the reader. Great writers draw you in and leave blank spaces for you to fill as you want to based on the information you are given. Great writers want you to be involved with their stories – not just viewers of them. If that is all a writer wanted, then television and movies is all we need. Everything written out to such an extent that there is no imagination beyond the creator of the artwork. Art is meant to be experienced, not just viewed. In great literature, the entire world was created by the author for you.
On the topic of symbolism, think about this. Don’t go too deep. Let the things that are easily identifiable as symbols take root with you. In our world firemen are symbols of heroism, and everything about (around and of) them add up to create this powerful image of a strong, brave, loving and caring hero who would sacrifice her or his very life for another. Let’s look at the surface stuff. The fireman’s helmet with the badge on it, the great truck with its tanks filled with the water of salvation, the hose that delivers that help, the great ladder to bring a baby down to safety. All these things are symbols of the firman that ultimately give us this hero. Even sitting still, firemen personify everything they stand for. Put this figure in action, and that is a powerful symbolic image that we all want to trive to appreciate. I thank firemen for what they do, whenever I see them – passing them in the grocery store, at the deli, in the street, when they sit around. They are heroes all the time. In our world, a salamander is a beautiful creation of nature and God. “. . .early Christianity held the salamander as a symbol of spiritual integrity, chastity, and righteousness” (http://www.symbolic-meanings.com/2008/03/04/light-my-fire-symbolism-of-the-salamander/). In our world, the salamander is a symbol of strength, energy, passion, courage, renewal, determination, balance, adaptation, and resilience. What about in the book? In Bradbury’s world the salamander is symbolically associated with emptiness of emotion, intellectual weakness, a static society, a general inability to change, dispassionate living, and spiritual death. It is the mascott of the fireman and of the destructive force of those firemen. The fireman’s helmet with the number 451 on it, the great truck with its tanks filled with the kerosene of destruction, the hose that delivers that destruction, the salamander is literally orange, red and yellow as fire. All these things are symbols of the firman that ultimately ADD UP to give us this beast of a character who we are, as readers, supposed to develop a disgust for. Even walking down the street with Clarisse in the beginning, Montag personified everything he stood for. You got the feeling she was cautious with him in the very beginning.
Take these and add them up to get the frightening symbol of the fireman himself walking toward your home knowing he is there to burn your books and, if you would not give them up, you with with them. The house would remain to be occupied by someone else who is “with the program.”
Keep it simple with the symbols and symbolic value of things. Allow the smaller symbols to add to each other to create a power in the bigger symbols. Remember, symbols feed symbols.
Here is a tangent I felt come over me . . . . One thing I like about literature is it can in ways seemingly impossible combine mathematical properties to create symbolic value in things through various combinations of images, feelings, emotions and allow ideas to form in the reader. It’s as though every mathematical property can be put to work in any order to achieve a goal – only in literatrue we use words as the variables and we use rules of grammar and punctuation to join, multiply, go to extremes with those ideas rather than mathematical symbols (+, -, X, etc.).
Anyway, that’s enough of that. To take this tangent all the way out there, check out these links – http://www.abstractmath.org/MM/MMSymLang.htm
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/grammar/punctuation/